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	<title>Comments on: House #15:  Officially Ours</title>
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	<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours</link>
	<description>Education for the Serious House Flipper</description>
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		<title>By: J Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3674</link>
		<dc:creator>J Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3674</guid>
		<description>Hey Josh,

First, congrats on being in the position you&#039;re in!  Sounds like you&#039;re going to be well-prepared for RE by the time you start investing full-time.

As for your question, it&#039;s somewhat complicated, but I&#039;ll try to explain it as simply as possible.  At the most basic level, it&#039;s not absolutely necessary that you have a corporation.  You can do everything without a corporate entity, take money out of your savings each week, etc.  But, there are some things you need to consider:

First, even if you don&#039;t have a company, from the IRS perspective, you&#039;re still self-employed and will still owe a couple different taxes on the money you earn.  You&#039;ll owe income tax on everything you earn (just like if you were getting a salary from a job) and you&#039;ll also most-likely owe self-employment taxes on everything you earn, even if you just stick the money in savings and don&#039;t &quot;pay yourself.&quot;  Because all the work you do yourself is considered business income, you will be treated like a company from the IRS, even if you don&#039;t set up a company.

Now, given that, perhaps you&#039;ll want to set up a company.  Doing so may provide you two very big advantages:

1. Liability protection.  If someone who is working with/for you gets hurt, or if someone decides to sue you for whatever reason, having a corporate entity that your assets are under will provide you some protection in case you lose a lawsuit.  There are lots of different ways to structure a business to protect your assets, but virtually all of them are better than not having a business structure at all.

2. Tax advantages.  That self-employment tax I was talking about can be as much as 15% of your income!  There are ways to avoid at least some of this tax using corporate structures.  Depending on what you&#039;re doing specifically, there may be ways to avoid all the self-employment tax.  But, without a corporate entity, you can&#039;t avoid these taxes.

So, in general, while you could probably avoid setting up a company, I&#039;m not sure you&#039;d want to.  Yup, there&#039;s some extra work involved in setting it up, managing it, paying taxes, etc.  But, you&#039;re going to be doing a lot of this whether you formally set up a company or not, and setting one up will provide a lot of benefits.

Not to mention, you can get people to help you with all of this (set up, legal advice, tax/payroll, etc) for a small fee.  It&#039;s well worth it in my opinion.

Just some stuff to think about!  Let me know if you have any more questions...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Josh,</p>
<p>First, congrats on being in the position you&#8217;re in!  Sounds like you&#8217;re going to be well-prepared for RE by the time you start investing full-time.</p>
<p>As for your question, it&#8217;s somewhat complicated, but I&#8217;ll try to explain it as simply as possible.  At the most basic level, it&#8217;s not absolutely necessary that you have a corporation.  You can do everything without a corporate entity, take money out of your savings each week, etc.  But, there are some things you need to consider:</p>
<p>First, even if you don&#8217;t have a company, from the IRS perspective, you&#8217;re still self-employed and will still owe a couple different taxes on the money you earn.  You&#8217;ll owe income tax on everything you earn (just like if you were getting a salary from a job) and you&#8217;ll also most-likely owe self-employment taxes on everything you earn, even if you just stick the money in savings and don&#8217;t &#8220;pay yourself.&#8221;  Because all the work you do yourself is considered business income, you will be treated like a company from the IRS, even if you don&#8217;t set up a company.</p>
<p>Now, given that, perhaps you&#8217;ll want to set up a company.  Doing so may provide you two very big advantages:</p>
<p>1. Liability protection.  If someone who is working with/for you gets hurt, or if someone decides to sue you for whatever reason, having a corporate entity that your assets are under will provide you some protection in case you lose a lawsuit.  There are lots of different ways to structure a business to protect your assets, but virtually all of them are better than not having a business structure at all.</p>
<p>2. Tax advantages.  That self-employment tax I was talking about can be as much as 15% of your income!  There are ways to avoid at least some of this tax using corporate structures.  Depending on what you&#8217;re doing specifically, there may be ways to avoid all the self-employment tax.  But, without a corporate entity, you can&#8217;t avoid these taxes.</p>
<p>So, in general, while you could probably avoid setting up a company, I&#8217;m not sure you&#8217;d want to.  Yup, there&#8217;s some extra work involved in setting it up, managing it, paying taxes, etc.  But, you&#8217;re going to be doing a lot of this whether you formally set up a company or not, and setting one up will provide a lot of benefits.</p>
<p>Not to mention, you can get people to help you with all of this (set up, legal advice, tax/payroll, etc) for a small fee.  It&#8217;s well worth it in my opinion.</p>
<p>Just some stuff to think about!  Let me know if you have any more questions&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Josh Hankins</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3673</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Hankins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jun 2010 04:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3673</guid>
		<description>Good Morning Jason,
I&#039;ve been following you, steph, steve (flippinghomes.com) toms blog for about a year now.  I&#039;m 30 and working for the state dept in Afgan as a helicopter crew chief.  My savings has hit 200k and i plan on doing about 18 more months, i want to pull out at 400k and start my rehab biz.  I&#039;m very hands on and will prob be my own G.C. My original plan was to have about 2 rehabs going on at a time, and use my own cash to buy and rehab.  I live in Kansas City, i have a quad and live in one of the units.  I was just going to i guess just take 1000.00 a week out of my savings and live on this.  Then I read this comment about your corp.  Am I going about this the wrong way?  Do i need to set it up as a corp and actually write myself a check once a week? I just liked the simplicity of taking 1000.00 a week out of my savings to live on and just paying my short term capital gains taxes on my rehabs at the end of the year.  I don&#039;t have a corporate background like you and am not real business savvy so this is the one area I struggle in.  In direction you could point me in would be a great help.  Thanks for all that you do.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good Morning Jason,<br />
I&#8217;ve been following you, steph, steve (flippinghomes.com) toms blog for about a year now.  I&#8217;m 30 and working for the state dept in Afgan as a helicopter crew chief.  My savings has hit 200k and i plan on doing about 18 more months, i want to pull out at 400k and start my rehab biz.  I&#8217;m very hands on and will prob be my own G.C. My original plan was to have about 2 rehabs going on at a time, and use my own cash to buy and rehab.  I live in Kansas City, i have a quad and live in one of the units.  I was just going to i guess just take 1000.00 a week out of my savings and live on this.  Then I read this comment about your corp.  Am I going about this the wrong way?  Do i need to set it up as a corp and actually write myself a check once a week? I just liked the simplicity of taking 1000.00 a week out of my savings to live on and just paying my short term capital gains taxes on my rehabs at the end of the year.  I don&#8217;t have a corporate background like you and am not real business savvy so this is the one area I struggle in.  In direction you could point me in would be a great help.  Thanks for all that you do.</p>
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		<title>By: J Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3102</link>
		<dc:creator>J Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3102</guid>
		<description>Hi Don -

We actually run two separate investing companies.  The first is funded by our personal savings, plus we have a line of credit from a small, local bank that finances many of our properties.   Between the line of credit and the cash we have invested, we have access to enough funds to hold/rehab about 6 houses simultaneously.  (Btw, this is why I highly recommend working with local banks)

Additionally, we own a separate corporation that is similar to a self-directed IRA (SDI), but actually much more flexible.  It is funded by portions of my wife and my retirement funds, and allows us to operate a full-fledged investing company using the money.  Unlike an SDI, where you can&#039;t materially participate in the investment, the operating company that we have REQUIRES us to be involved in the company&#039;s operations on a day-to-day basis.  Additionally, unlike an SDI (or most other retirement vehicles), our company allows us -- actually, it requires us -- to draw a salary from our profits.  There are some downsides -- such as the fact that this retirement vehicle must be structured as a C-Corporation and therefore is taxed sub-optimally -- but overall, I find it much more suitable to operating a full-time investment business than an SDI would.

If you want more info, shoot me an email...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Don -</p>
<p>We actually run two separate investing companies.  The first is funded by our personal savings, plus we have a line of credit from a small, local bank that finances many of our properties.   Between the line of credit and the cash we have invested, we have access to enough funds to hold/rehab about 6 houses simultaneously.  (Btw, this is why I highly recommend working with local banks)</p>
<p>Additionally, we own a separate corporation that is similar to a self-directed IRA (SDI), but actually much more flexible.  It is funded by portions of my wife and my retirement funds, and allows us to operate a full-fledged investing company using the money.  Unlike an SDI, where you can&#8217;t materially participate in the investment, the operating company that we have REQUIRES us to be involved in the company&#8217;s operations on a day-to-day basis.  Additionally, unlike an SDI (or most other retirement vehicles), our company allows us &#8212; actually, it requires us &#8212; to draw a salary from our profits.  There are some downsides &#8212; such as the fact that this retirement vehicle must be structured as a C-Corporation and therefore is taxed sub-optimally &#8212; but overall, I find it much more suitable to operating a full-time investment business than an SDI would.</p>
<p>If you want more info, shoot me an email&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Ranney</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3101</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Ranney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3101</guid>
		<description>Don, you will want to think long and hard about using your retirement IRA for real estate investing.  I would start with the banks first, then perhaps doing a joint venture with someone.  A good JV partner could also be your contractor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don, you will want to think long and hard about using your retirement IRA for real estate investing.  I would start with the banks first, then perhaps doing a joint venture with someone.  A good JV partner could also be your contractor.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hines</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3100</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3100</guid>
		<description>You mentioned using your own cash...I have often wondered what kind of nest egg you had from your previous life when you started. Have you ever worked with a self directed IRA? Or do you know anything about them you can share??

thanks
Don</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mentioned using your own cash&#8230;I have often wondered what kind of nest egg you had from your previous life when you started. Have you ever worked with a self directed IRA? Or do you know anything about them you can share??</p>
<p>thanks<br />
Don</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3095</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 05:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3095</guid>
		<description>*going to begin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*going to begin</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3094</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 05:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3094</guid>
		<description>I just found found your blog. I spent about an hour reading through all your old post. What a great blog! I am going begin investing in real estate in the near future. This site will be a great tool. Thanks!

-Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found found your blog. I spent about an hour reading through all your old post. What a great blog! I am going begin investing in real estate in the near future. This site will be a great tool. Thanks!</p>
<p>-Brian</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3091</link>
		<dc:creator>J Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3091</guid>
		<description>Steve -

It&#039;s certainly tempting...though I still have this nagging feeling that if I try to do it, it will come back to bite me one way or the other...

I may consult my attorney to figure out what the worst-case scenario/penalty would be if I got caught, and make my decision from there...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve -</p>
<p>It&#8217;s certainly tempting&#8230;though I still have this nagging feeling that if I try to do it, it will come back to bite me one way or the other&#8230;</p>
<p>I may consult my attorney to figure out what the worst-case scenario/penalty would be if I got caught, and make my decision from there&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.123flip.com/house-15-officially-ours/comment-page-1#comment-3089</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.123flip.com/?p=1766#comment-3089</guid>
		<description>Might be worth fixing it and reselling it?  If they didn&#039;t put a restriction on the deed it&#039;s going to be tough for Fannie Mae to track it down.  

Any luck finding apartments or commercial stuff?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Might be worth fixing it and reselling it?  If they didn&#8217;t put a restriction on the deed it&#8217;s going to be tough for Fannie Mae to track it down.  </p>
<p>Any luck finding apartments or commercial stuff?</p>
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